Little Oven Circuit Sunday - Apology!
Mon, 04/06/2007 - 14:17 — Aitch
I balked two XC riders, one a girl and the other a guy on a factory colours Yeti, getting their climb on up the Little Oven circuit on Sunday morning. They very kindly got out of my way when I was "riding" down the hill, when in fact I should have pulled up and let them by on a tight bit of the course. My apologies for not giving way (downhill gives way to uphill, I know!) and thanks for letting me through. Hope it didn't wreck your morning. Again - sorry.
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really? i always though up
really? i always though up hill give way to down hill as downhill you have less control and cant stop as quick, so its easier to pull over if you are slowly riding.
No - just like motor gives
No - just like motor gives way to sail on the water, if you are putting in the hard yards on your ride the gravity assisted must give way to you.
Mountain Bike? - I think I own one of those - what do they look like?
Aitch, no prob, I had blown
Aitch, no prob, I had blown up by that stage of my ride and was happy for any excuse to stop and rest, my own fault really, just running on plain water for a +3hr ride, what was I thinking.
On the give way "rule", the old rule as I remember it is that downhill gives way to uphill, on the basis that it is a lot harder to get going again on an uphill. However, that rule was set in days of non-full suspension bikes, so the case could be made that modern bikes can achieve significantly more speed going downhill and it is thus dangerous to expect a downhill rider to give way to someone coming up, who is more easily able to pull off the track, not something that a downhill rider can do given that they are usually committed to a line and trying to move off that line at short notice is risky.
I would be useful to get a decision on this - would be good to create an etiquette page for newbies with this and other guidelines.
my two cents...
i'm in the downhill giving way to uphill riders, despite improvements in suspension, what about the advancements in Brakes?
I think if youre going downhill too fast to be able to avoid some one coming the otherway, then you are out of control and a danger to other trail users. if you want to go that fast do downhilling/d/h racing where you won't have people coming up the same track.
i know we are guilty of failing to give way at some point in time but courtesy works wonders in keeping kharma happy.
No up hill givesway to
No up hill givesway to downhill, we are on bush tracks with bends ect so its not allways possible to see clearly ahead. you cant hear riders coming up hill when your going downhill, if ya can your going very slowly or walking so giveway to the hardworker.Most times you know somethings comin when climbing (is it a bird ect nope a mtbiker)an try to move out of their line. But if downhill can hear you coming up you need the rest. People will try an giveway in both directions anyway depending on the conditions, we all try an do the righty.
Using logic as to who gives way....
One would think that the person going up hill would be going slower and therefore be able to stop faster.
Also the the person going up hill would be able see and hear a bike rattling down hill.
The person going down hill would be concentrating on the immediate trail ahead, not further ahead looking for other riders.
The rider going down hill would have the wind rushing past/through his/her ears and maybe a full face helmet and would never hear a person huffing and puffing as they ride up the hill.
The person riding down hill would have to brake hard/skid/ruin the track to pull up to allow the rider going up hill to slowly pedal past.
PS I'm not a down hiller, nor do I have sail or a motor.
subjects suck
No - just like motor gives way to sail on the water, if you are putting in the hard yards on your ride the gravity assisted must give way to you.
ermm.. I hardly think that that's an appropiate anology.
Yes! the law of the land states that downhillers must give way to uphillers. But from a practicality standpoint, I feel it should be the other way around for all the reasons given by everyone else above.
Powerboats must give way to the sails because the sail's options are much more limited than the powerboats' eg. if there's no wind, the boat can't move for anybody etc etc. So, this is a practical rule. Similarly, cars don't have to give way to us cyclists just 'coz they're powered and we're not. So in making up practical rules, perhaps those decending should have right of way??
That said, I'm an XC rider and I always automatically give way to people decending.. just as others automatically give way to me while I'm decending.
Makes sense don't ya think? :)
Marcus, what I said still
Marcus, what I said still stands and is an entirely appropriate analogy. Do you sail? Do you come from a family of mariners? I very much doubt it. Do I?....Yes. You cannot tell me that a 60000 tonne bulk carrier has more options for movement than the 25 ft pleasure cruiser passing it in a channel. Does the bulk carrier have to give way? You bet it does. This is not my opinion, this is international maritime law. (That's not to say that anyone chancing a run in with a bulk carrier shouldn't have their head read.)
Downhill gives way to uphill for exactly the same reason that motor gives way to sail on the water. With greater mass / speed / whatever, comes extra responsibility and the need for extra vigilance in your activities. Cars don't automatically give way to cyclists for the simple reason that there are defined lanes and markers on roads that govern the flow of traffic. On a single track, there are no such lines dictating the flow of traffic, so the common rule reverts to the same principle applied to vessels on the open water.
Moreover, I too am an XC rider and I would have thought that you and everyone else would know that your manoeuvrability is drastically reduced when chewing your handlebars on a climb. Conversely, those with gravity on their side can far more easily alter direction without ruining their rythym.
Mountain Bike? - I think I own one of those - what do they look like?
right of way
Personally I think all riders should be on the lookout, it can be clearly seen here that there is bound to be a variety of opinions on the trails. Consider a person descending at speed attempting to leave the trail, whilst at the same time the ascending cyclist pulls over to give way - it just so happens that they both go to the same side of the trail!!! Result - we all know the answer to that.
I do have to go with the descender giving way - if they want to boot about at high speed the should race. Weekend trail riders will come from all walks of life with varying degrees of skill, knowledge etc etc and surely no one want to run over a kid or the elderly, anyone!!! Go fast but be considerate of other users and slow up when you see them ahead.
And by the way (not that I mean to be picky), but a 60000 tonne bulk carrier doesn't have to give way to a 25 ft pleasure cruiser as the bulk carrier is a commercial vessel (recreational vessels give way to commercial) - the bulk carrier should issue 5 blasts on it's horn - get out of the way!!! That's what I call International Maritime Collision Regulations.
Anyway,
Random Bloke has had his say!!!
Give way to downhillers. Vote 1
I have always given way to others coming down, it seems so much more practical.
Others have always given way to me and others coming down.
When someone told me that it is the ethical thing to give way to uphillers I was totally gobsmacked.
Whether it is wrong or right I would prefer the rule to be to give way to downhillers. It would save confusion for the majority.
Give way to uphill riders. Vote 1
It's hard enough to keep riding up hill, but to have to start up-hill from stationary is a real pain in the RRs. For a rider coming down, it's just a matter of rolling and clipping in to get going again.
As someone above said, if you're going too fast to avoid a collision with a rider on the track, you're out of control. Who are you going to blame when you come face-to-face with a 4wd or a fallen tree around a blind corner? "I didn't hear it through my helmet" is a lame excuse.
Cheers,
Graeme
Common sense!
I've always given way to riders coming down,as do most of the people I ride with.
If your riding/pushing up a trail you know is used for riding down,common sense
should kick in.I don't give a rats arse if the cleats on your clown shoes clog up
with gravel.
Yes and No
I always try to get out of the way of the descending rider, who wants to wreck someones buzz eh.
However, why would the MTB forefathers decree that the descending rider should give way????
Perhaps while most riders will try to get out of the way of a descending rider, the onus should be on the descending rider to ensure they have sufficient control to avoid any obstacle (be it animal (rider), vegitable (tree or walker), or mineral(rock or MTB)).
I'll take a lawyer with me next time . . . .
For crying out loud folks .. . . . . . . . can't we all just apply a little bit of common sense . . . . and put our mocho egos on hold . . . .we're out there to ride, not to kill each other . .
Sometimes its better the down hill person to give way, sometimes the up hill - if you can't or don't want to figure out which one - take a lawyer with you next time . . . .
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"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
Give way to Downhillers +1
It's hard enough to keep riding up hill, but to have to start up-hill from stationary is a real pain in the RRs. For a rider coming down, it's just a matter of rolling and clipping in to get going again.
As someone above said, if you're going too fast to avoid a collision with a rider on the track, you're out of control. Who are you going to blame when you come face-to-face with a 4wd or a fallen tree around a blind corner? "I didn't hear it through my helmet" is a lame excuse.
Cheers,
Graeme
Ok lets take time into account shall we!!!
Time it takes for a uphiller to ride up past a stopped downhiller - 30 secs to a min (Assuming their not elite)
Time it takes for a downhiller to ride past a stopped uphiller - 2 - 5 secs
And as for "I didn't hear it through my helmet" is a lame excuse. When was the last time you went fast? Anywhere? Going down my street you cant hear a thing because of the rush of air, now add to that the crunch of gravel. You are effectively deaf when downhilling.
If your riding up you can hear them coming a mile away
"If you're going too fast to avoid a collision with a rider on the track, you're out of control" What a crock, again I must ask? when was the last time you went fast ?
There are blind corners where you need to be on the ball. It is heaps easer and safer to dodge a person coming down than a person coming up.
AND like someone mentioned. If your flying down and someone appears in front of you, you would need lock it up to stop in time(If possible), thus damaging the track.
Im am XC.
EXplain that one to the judge
"Your honor, I was going so fast down a public track on a public non-race day that I couldn't stop in time when I hit and seriously injured the seven year old girl walking up the track with her parents".
I'm sure I mentioned common sense somewhere in a post above . . . . . . .. . .
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"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
uphill give way to downhill +2
I'm all about the uphill rider getting out of the way. The climbing is all about the reward of flying back down the hill whether it is xc or dh. as for the effort of the uphill rider having to start again that is a skill you can master by stopping to get out of the way more often.
Uphill giving way to
Uphill giving way to downhill may not be the 'rule' but it makes much more sense than the opposite. Easier, quicker & safer for uphill rider to stop & get out of the way.
I'm all about safety and accident prevention so unless I'm racing up the hill for a million bucks, I'm not going to risk an accident with a downhiller who may be paying more attention to the 3 metre jump he's about to do, and not focussing on me pedalling below the jump, hidden by trees. I can probably hear him but he probably can't hear me. Uphiller gets out the way. Simple.
downhill riders should have
downhill riders should have the right of way. just so much easier
for an uphill rider to get out of the way..
?
"Your honor, I was going so fast down a public track on a public non-race day that I couldn't stop in time when I hit and seriously injured the seven year old girl walking up the track with her parents".
"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
I fail to see how I would be charged for such an occourance?
Where is it written?
I have been looking for a written set of "rules of the trail".
The best I have come up with is the IMBA rules of the trail which states that you should "always yield trail".
What the hell I'll "always yield trail" to the downward trail users, who wants to ruin their fun.
as long as we miss !
first reaction? should we keep/get left, the legs might be burning but uphill to give way as genraly has more awareness to location & envioment.
You might find out before the rest of us.
"Your honor, I was going so fast down a public track on a public non-race day that I couldn't stop in time when I hit and seriously injured the seven year old girl walking up the track with her parents".
"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
I fail to see how I would be charged for such an occourance?
As i said, I'm not a lawyer either . . . . but if you go barreling down public tracks with an attitude thats says "Get the F%^&K out of my way", your more likly to find out before the rest of us :P
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"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
:/
"Your honor, I was going so fast down a public track on a public non-race day that I couldn't stop in time when I hit and seriously injured the seven year old girl walking up the track with her parents".
"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
I fail to see how I would be charged for such an occourance?
As i said, I'm not a lawyer either . . . . but if you go barreling down public tracks with an attitude thats says "Get the F%^&K out of my way", your more likly to find out before the rest of us :P
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"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
I Never said that, And besides, Its all good to be al happy happy joy joy but I'm viewing this from a realistic perspective.
Sometimes courtesy cant be applied in certain situations but when it can, It should! One must be prepared for all contingencies.
Punch him in the head! :p
This is becoming an awesome flamewar. Not as good as the Gungin thread, or the one about roadies drafting, but it's good ;)
Just to throw another element in the mix - consider that people generally ride in groups. So you'll have a stream of high speed descenders meeting a trail of uphill crawlers. How does that affect your scenarios?!
In my experience, in both climbing and descending, what I think must just about always happen is the downhill riders slow slightly and safely pass the climbers, who make a bit of extra effort to give them some trail. No fuss, it just works, nice and easy.
I don't know about these claims of riders being "out of control". If the corner is blind then your speed is likely to be suitable anyway.
I can recall the odd occasion where there was a high speed surprise/near collision with a rider coming the other way. These were on the (pretty much) flat. I guess that there's some correlation between the speed you can carry on a trail, and your skill - which proves invaluable (and sufficient, so far!) in avoiding a collision in such occasions.
No doubt there are riders out there who have had less fortunate experiences. To some extent, this is the nature of the beast, I guess. No doubt also that meetings which result in an incident, rank in the minority.
The ONE RULE
The ONE RULE is;
Small, weedy uphiller gives way to big, beefy downhiller.
No discussion will be entered into......
Flame baiting
This is becoming an awesome flamewar. Not as good as the Gungin thread, or the one about roadies drafting, but it's good ;)
.
Aww, come on, I'm trying!!!!!
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"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
Not discounting that out of
Not discounting that out of courtesy almost all climbing riders [me included] give way to the descending rider.
In 2000 WAMBA produced a pamphlet elaborating on the rules of the trail (www.dpi.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/cycling_WAMountainBikeInformationGuide.pdf).
4. Always yield the trail: Make known you approach well in advance. A friendly greeting (or a bell) is considerate and works well; don't startle others. Show your respect when passing others by slowing to a walk or even stopping. Anticipate that other trail users may be around comers or in blind spots. When approaching equestrians, yield means stop and get off!
Yield to uphill bike traffic - Your fellow cyclists travelling uphill on a narrow trail have the right of way! Stop and let them go by if you are travelling downhill. You can get going again easily, they can't!
Is the "right of way to the climbing rider rule" something that WAMBA has made up? Interestingly IMBA have not elaborated on the "must yeild the trail".
A few points to giggle over:
Make known you approach well in advance - does the deafening chain slap count?
A friendly greeting (or a bell) - who has a bell on their MTB? AND nothing sounds friendly with a heart rate of 190 (uphill or downhill).
You can get going again easily, they can't! - Don't agree with the reasoning, someone told me that if you can't ride up it you shouldn't ride down it.
Thank you!
Thank you!
Flow on
It does seem that WAMBA has "made up" yeild to uphillers.
Cmon lets be practical now, keep the flow going.
True story.
I had a frIend that got a flat at night.
He sat down on the track to fix it.
Next thing that happens is WHAM, he got hit big time by a downhiller.
It frightened the hell out of him, he had no lights, no bell, and couldnt hear a thing.
The golden retriever got caught out in the dark and was downhilling home for dinner.
Poor thing got hell of a fright when he ran into some idiot sitting on the track.
As for my friend, well he lern't his lesson and yeilds to downward trail users.
Good pick up on WAMBA. Only
Good pick up on WAMBA. Only one way to resolve this question - vote on it. We have been continuing discussions with Cycling WA about merging WAMBA and will soon have to call an AGM to agree/sign off on the details of how that will work.
I think we will have to add an agenda item under general business: Uphill/Downhill yield rule. This is sure to guarantee a big turnout given the interest display on this topic. Start marshalling your proxy votes.
uphill struggle
uphill downhill if we meet a horse, we need to yield. ( i allways have ) but why. i got two legs he's got six, (or two & one horse power).
LOL
LOL
uphill downhill if we meet a horse, we need to yield. ( i allways have ) but why. i got two legs he's got six, (or two & one horse power).
dog gone it
wed night ride::
I asked my friends what is the correct situation.
they both said downhiller gives way to uphiller.
apparently It goes back a long way.
But where is it written in law???????
Prove it please .:!:():!0
My interperetation is that both up and down must give way at same time, stop, say hello, shake hands, give details and then move on.
To me, it means give way to downward trail users.
Considering the average err umm gee um errr ummm trail graidient is not err um really that steeep
I would yeild to the downhiller at any time. let them have their fun.
I am skillful so much so that I can ride/or continue an uphill ride, at any time.
Is your skill level realy that bad????. Or are you riding trails you should not realy be riding?.
What say you?
But if you are carrying a
But if you are carrying a map, you give way to the downhiller (because the chances are they are not watching the track...) although i think in australia you still pass on the right!
Appendix 7: The MTB-O Competitors Code
1. Slow right down when passing members of the public on foot or on horseback.
2. Avoid damaging the path through aggressive riding such as skidding.
3. When two riders converge:
i. riders should normally pass with their left shoulders
ii. any rider travelling downhill should be given priority
iii. at an intersection, the rider on the smaller path should give way to any rider on the larger path.
4. Riders should overtake on the left.
5. Slower riders should give way to overtaking riders.
6. When riding on public roads the traffic rules of the country must be observed
Pass on the right not left
But if you are carrying a map, you give way to the downhiller (because the chances are they are not watching the track...) although i think in australia you still pass on the right!
Appendix 7: The MTB-O Competitors Code
1. Slow right down when passing members of the public on foot or on horseback.
2. Avoid damaging the path through aggressive riding such as skidding.
3. When two riders converge:
i. riders should normally pass with their left shoulders
ii. any rider travelling downhill should be given priority
iii. at an intersection, the rider on the smaller path should give way to any rider on the larger path.
4. Riders should overtake on the left.
5. Slower riders should give way to overtaking riders.
6. When riding on public roads the traffic rules of the country must be observed
This "Pass on the left " thing is great - if your live in the US or europe.
Many years of riding here and the rules of the actual road have beatten the survival instinct of "When in doubt - go left" and pass on the right.
So, please, unless your competing at an international level - lets "when in doubt - keep left". Otherwise, regardless of who gives way, if one person does what years of instint tell them - and goes left to get out of the way - and the other goes right "international rules", we're all screwed.
And can't remeber anyone passing me on the left in any of the 12hrs I've done . . . . . and I get passed a LOT!!!
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"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
Most Momentum Wins
I don't think it matters how many rules, votes, codes of conduct or enforcement actions you try to have ...... it comes down to courtesy and common sense out on the trail.
I still reckon "Most Momentum Wins".......
ie. combined mass (fat downhiller and 20kg DH bike) x speed down hill > combined mass (skinny enduro uphiller and weight weenie carbon XC bike) x granny gear uphill.
Angry duck i think you are a
Angry duck i think you are a bit biased... surely great big blundering track-cycling heavyweights should give way to youth, beauty and agility
Votes
Good pick up on WAMBA. Only one way to resolve this question - vote on it. We have been continuing discussions with Cycling WA about merging WAMBA and will soon have to call an AGM to agree/sign off on the details of how that will work.
I think we will have to add an agenda item under general business: Uphill/Downhill yield rule. This is sure to guarantee a big turnout given the interest display on this topic. Start marshalling your proxy votes.
Assuming worst case scenario (where it is voted in that DH gives way hehe), will we have a situation where the "self-rightous" uphillers just stop in the middle of the track refusing to let the DHs go? Or will anything even change? Or is it just a futile exercise?
proxy votes? spot the share trader... :)
holy antigravity
While riding on a public track and being an individual i would have to say common sense makes any kind of riding dangerous, especial if you think your the only one in the world that rides a bike.
YOU ALL should be looking out for each other . Why try and segregate the mtb comunity with some primary school thinkin?
Have some repect for all who wish to enjoy the outdoors,even the wheelless, or go play a vidio game/watch TV for F#*K sake.
To all those XC riding up downhill tracks, GOOD LUCK!
to all those DH riding down cross country tracks, BE AWARE!
All i see is two different individuals trying to fight about the colour of trees. Wierd?
don't knock on deaths door, ring the bell and run, its more fun.
__________________________Don't Knock on deaths door. Ring the doorbell and run, It's more fun.
giving way
hang on yarg,isn't the whole idea of mtb riding to go fast?fast on the flowing flats,fast uphill and fast downhill?isn't this what makes it FUN and so ADDICTIVE?if i wanna go slow i'll ride the mundda biddi,little ovens is a fast flowing track with sweet downs and ups and an excellent flowing singletrack made for momentum and speed.if the rule is down gives way to up i say break it(with a big grin).rules are meant to be broken.yes?common sense tells me to get out the way when someone is coming down a hill.watch out for the silver reign when pointed down 'cause it ain't gunna stop!!!!speed thrills stupidity kills,give way to descending riders :)
The idea is to ride
hang on yarg,isn't the whole idea of mtb riding to go fast?fast on the flowing flats,fast uphill and fast downhill?isn't this what makes it FUN and so ADDICTIVE?if i wanna go slow i'll ride the mundda biddi,little ovens is a fast flowing track with sweet downs and ups and an excellent flowing singletrack made for momentum and speed.if the rule is down gives way to up i say break it(with a big grin).rules are meant to be broken.yes?common sense tells me to get out the way when someone is coming down a hill.watch out for the silver reign when pointed down 'cause it ain't gunna stop!!!!speed thrills stupidity kills,give way to descending riders :)
Ahh, here we run into that fundamental problem. You see, there are a whole lot of people out there that don't actually race, they ride. I know where I stand in the a to z of speed machines, and I enjoy it. But that does not mean that they whole MTB community has to go my speed (Thank god) or that if they can't ride my speed they are some how a lesser MTBer.
There seems to be a lot of people - of whom you appear to be one, that think the MTB world exists for them and them alone. If you think that only the fast should be riding - unless your wearing rainbow - its not for you.
You see, no one, not even those wearing rainbow, got on a bike one day and went faster than anyone else. We all started somewhere. This piece of simple, irrifutable logic, shoots down the whole - if your not riding fast (and that means at least as fast as me - because - of course I'm fast) you shouldn't be riding, caus Bro, your started like the rest of us . . . . .not at the top . . and unless your rainbow . . .your not there yet.
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"I may be slow but I an't Dumb"
I don't think that Badchef
I don't think that Badchef is saying that the aim is to go fast in an absolute sense and that only the fastest should ride, but rather that for the most part the enjoyment of riding comes from pushing yourself. I'm sure that Sam Hill feels just as in control (most likely more so) as I do while he's winning world cups and I'm DNFing Sport B, but I still have fun pushing myself to go as fast as I do. You need to be mindful of your surroundings at all times descending or ascending. Sounds a bit stupid not check your left through a roundabout because you've got right of way right? It's the same thing on the trail. The way i see it, it's best to always remember that regardless of rules, some people will be idiots. In this case I can't imagine an idiot coming up a trail and cleaning me up, but I sure as hell could see one doing it on their way down. I don't think that there should be a binding right of way rule, but rather a recognition that if your more easily aware in a situation then the onus is on you to protect yourself, and because it's easier for the uphill rider to be aware they should at least always be prepared to move for the person coming down. In a perfect world we'd all just slow down, say g'day and discuss how much further it is to the top though yer?
MTBO Jen
Angry duck i think you are a bit biased... surely great big blundering track-cycling heavyweights should give way to youth, beauty and agility
Ah Jen, I hope you are not describing me and you? I may be big but I dont blunder, and I know only two of those other descriptions match you......
who gives way?
looks like doug got it and yarg didn't. by the way yarg,the only rainbow i saw was on the back window of your car :)